Episode 17 | The Fight for Thousands is not over (Dominik Witzigmann)

Christian: Great. Look, Dominik, three years ago you wrote something on LinkedIn and I want you to read a part out of it because I think it has to be your words. You wrote: "Last month we have lost the battle against lymphoblastic leukemia. However, the fight for thousands of others is not over." What did you mean specifically by that?

Dominik: Yeah, it's quite a personal moment, obviously. It's about my daughter, who passed away close to the age of four because of leukemia. I remember that day pretty well, and the reason why I posted, we can talk about this later.

She had some sickness symptoms, like her brother had. They were together in the same kindergarten. The older brother had stomach flu, which we thought, okay, our daughter had the same. The coming days she had some pain in her arms and legs, so we went to the hospital and they did an x-ray to see if there was a fracture, but nothing. So we went home, and the coming days it didn't get better, so we went back and really asked the medical doctors, can you take her blood, do some analytics and see what's going on? There's something wrong with her. We went home, and then in the afternoon I got a call and they said, you have to go immediately to the hospital, and I knew there was something wrong.

So we went to the hospital and they did some additional analytics, and then we were in this room waiting together, my wife, our other son, and we brought our parents. We were waiting there for the medical doctor. He came in and then there was silence and he said, your daughter most probably has leukemia. This was a really tough moment, and we went through this fight, and it was tough, and at the end she passed away because we lost that fight against cancer. This had an impact on me and my family, and how I see the world, and how I deal with the company I've co-founded, and overall how I manage life, I would say, and manage situations.

Christian: I cannot imagine such a situation. You said you went through the story quite quickly. Did you have an idea that this could be the case, because you said you wanted to do some blood work because of a gut feeling? Or what was your thinking there?

Dominik: Yeah, and I would say as a parent you see your kids close to 24/7. You know your kids the best. Given the x-ray didn't show any fracture and we were sent home and should take some painkiller and wait, but it didn't get better and we couldn't locate why she should have this pain, we really felt, and especially my wife, she felt something was wrong, we need to do something about it. Blood analytics is quite easy and will give a lot of information, so it was important that we did this. I think it's really about parents knowing their kids the best, and it's really listening to your heart and your gut feeling and then asking for these tests. So no, I didn't expect this at all.

Christian: How did you handle it at the beginning and throughout? There was of course grief, there were of course all signs of grief, I guess. I cannot imagine, I have a daughter myself. I don't know how to relate to this, but maybe you can tell me the story: how you reacted, what kind of words you used to talk to yourself, how was your relationship to your wife. Maybe you can help me understand that.

Dominik: Yeah, and I guess you are asking not about the day of the diagnosis itself but about when Lotta passed away?

Christian: Well, I think when you get the diagnosis, I guess you understand also the chances of survival. So I think it's the whole time of hope and fear, I guess.

Dominik: Maybe talking first about the diagnosis. Yeah, it's shocking and you really lose everything in that moment, but there's always hope, even until the last end. At the end, where it was clear that it would be tough for her to survive this and she most probably would pass away, we had several conversations with medical doctors about this night she might not survive, and she did, and then the fight went on. You never lose the hope until the last moment, because you always hope there is something magical happening.

Christian: How much time passed from the first pain and her passing away?

Dominik: Actually it was really fast. It was eight weeks. Eight weeks. Acute leukemia can be incredibly fast. We met other parents afterwards, obviously we met a lot of parents who lost their kids because of cancer or genetic diseases, and acute leukemia can be very aggressive. We also met parents who lost their kids within six weeks or similar time frames. The problem with acute leukemia is the entire immune system is destroyed, so you need immediate cancer therapy, which will also have an impact on the immune system. So it's quite a problem, because you are very affected by this and can easily get any infection by bacteria, viruses, and this was also troublesome for my daughter.

Christian: So let me go back to my question that I had. What kind of conversation did you have with yourself and with your wife?

Dominik: A lot of conversation. At first, at the start, you don't realize, you don't want to believe that this is true, what just happened. When you lose your kid and your kid passed away, there's nothing there, how you can ever overcome this. So you don't believe that, and it holds on for a really long time, but the fact is you have to live with it and you have to find a way how to change that.

What helped me, what helped us as a couple, as a family (we have two other kids), is really talking a lot about it, meeting with other parents, because you realize quickly you're not alone. There are so many others who have lost their loved ones, and a lot who have lost their kids. This helped us a lot, to really talk a lot about her, talk to other parents and express our feelings. And let's say this was nothing I ever thought could happen. My approach to this was really to fight for Lotta and really propel this grief and the sadness into motivation to change something in terms of medicines.

Christian: How did you do that? I mean, you are very reflective, that's for sure, but how did you do that?

Dominik: It's a good question. I'm a very forward-looking and positive person, and you can never change the past. I would never like to have this situation, but I cannot change it. So I have to deal with it. I fully understand there have been families and parents who couldn't deal with it and they were lost, and we were also lost, but we had a lot of good friends, a really good family, we kept fighting, and this really helped us. I think everyone will deal differently with it. For me it's really that I have to look to the future and think, okay, can I really fight for her? This is what means a lot to me, having her aside me when there are troublesome situations, uncertain situations. Then Lotta, my daughter, helps me with these.

Christian: I think there has to be a pivotal moment when you change from grief to a transformation that changes the story. Was there such a moment? Don't get me wrong, I think you need to grieve in some way.

Dominik: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Christian: And it's ugly. And when people grieve with you, it's rather help. It's, I guess, good and bad, but maybe you can tell me about that.

Dominik: Yeah. And I would say to the grief, maybe first, when you lose your kid and your kid passed away, this will never end. The grief changes, at the beginning versus years after this it's just a different type of grief, but you will never stop doing that. It sometimes comes in waves. If you asked me if there was a pivotal moment for that, I don't think so. I knew I wanted to change something. Even though she passed away, shortly after I had a lot of support from the team in that time. I really appreciate my co-founders and the team who really supported me, because we had Nanovation running, but then I also knew that Nanovation, the company I co-founded, will help me to potentially have an impact and to change the story. And this is what I learned for myself.

Christian: How much time did you take off?

Dominik: I started slowly, but I didn't actually take too long time off because, first of all, our oldest son was in school. So this also helps; you have to get back to the rhythm because there are the children. So we talk about weeks, we talk about weeks. Roughly two months or so. But I can also understand there were other parents we have met who took off several months, a year or longer. The way I deal with this was really, really hard. I had to put my energy into the work, but also keep the family together and talk a lot with my wife and the kids. But since we had other kids, life had to go on.

Christian: Was there an external influence that helped you understand to transform that grief into positive outlook? Somebody who told you, this helped us, maybe an affected parent, telling you a story?

Dominik: I would say, yeah, talking to a lot of parents and meeting parents who have lost their kids maybe several years before. During the time when Lotta was in the hospital, we were living in a housing for families with kids with cancer. They have a small, ever-increasing group of people who have lost their kids, and there are families whose kids passed away several years ago. So it's good to talk with them and see how they reacted. After something like this happens, you also watch different videos and how others deal with that.

There's definitely a professor in the US who has also co-founded a company focused on cancer, and I watched a talk of him. He showed the photo of his son, because he has lost his son, and he also transformed that. This was kind of also a moment where I realized, okay, this is what drives me. This is what I call my massive transformative purpose, what drives me every day, what keeps me going, what helps me to go one step more than I actually want to. And this is really my daughter and transforming that grief and this situation into power.

Christian: Yeah, I have so much interest in the transformation that you have there, because I think that is absolutely helpful to anybody who is affected. How do you know that you are ready to transform?

Dominik: Yeah, that's a very good question to ask.

Christian: Do you wake up one day in the morning and say, okay, I'm sick of it, I don't want to grieve anymore? What is it?

Dominik: I think it's continuously telling yourself, what is the solution? You can grieve and you still go on to grieve, but how can you transform that moment? For me it was really about, what can I change? I will never get my daughter back, but I can help others. I can have an impact on people within the team. I can have an impact on patients potentially with Nanovation and the partners we work with. I wouldn't say that there's one specific moment. This is quite personal, and since I'm a quite positive, forward-looking person, I was looking for solutions, how I can transform that.

Christian: Yes. There's a personality trait that I just can point towards. You said something like, what is the solution, what can I do about it, how can I change my situation? Is the source of it somewhere in your childhood, in your past? Did you learn to think like that?

Dominik: For sure, also in the childhood, in terms of being a positive person. I grew up with a happy life, a very positive life as a child. But I think it's also maybe the scientist in myself. Scientists are looking for solutions, critically thinking, asking the right questions. I think it was also part of that to say, okay, there is a problem, but what is the solution to that? I have to overcome the challenge somehow. Only a solution will solve that. And I think it's the scientist and the scientific approach to that probably, and being quite rational about it.

Christian: Yeah, being rational about emotions is tough. I think that isn't part of everybody. But what about the relationship that you had? You mentioned the relationships in the company, they were very supportive. What about the relationship with your kids and your wife?

Dominik: You have to, I would say, grow into the situations for sure. It changed our entire life, but I think what helped us a lot and what is key, and what I would tell everyone: talk about it. We met various couples who stopped talking about the kid who passed away. I think it's really important to express your feelings, talk to each other, and also realize and accept that people grieve differently. Your partner grieves differently than your other kids, children, family who is surrounding you, friends, and you have to accept that. I think that's a key moment.

And for the team, there was also a pivotal moment, I would say. Obviously I was quite open and told the team what happened and how we can potentially deal with that. And as mentioned, I had a lot of support, but one of our board members immediately wrote me, "Family first, above everything." This is something which I always tell my team, since that happened, because several of our team members have maybe lost their parents, grandparents, some other loved ones. The first thing I always write is, "Family first, above everything. Your team will deal with it. Take time. We will handle it. We are one team." The acronym I like is TEAM: Together Everyone Achieves More. When people have to take time for themselves, the team has to jump in. This is something I realized, what this means in these situations. I think it's really in these challenging times that you realize what you have and how you can deal with these situations.

Christian: Yes. You also wrote about the necessity of blood donation. Why is it necessary?

Dominik: Yeah. So blood donation and stem cell donation, two parts where I realized how much you can do for others. Blood donation: when you have leukemia especially, you need a lot of blood during these therapies, because your blood is destroyed there. You need thrombocytes, platelets. You need blood supply. It's something which you can easily do every couple of months, you can go and donate your blood. This is something we really started then afterwards, quite on a regular basis, but also always encouraged the team. There's the blood donation day, I think it's June the 14th, where we say, around this event, let's encourage people within the team. The team has also organized events to go to blood donation. This is incredible to see, because it is something you can easily do and it will help others to survive.

The other part is stem cell donation, because most leukemia patients, or patients with a stem cell genetic disease, need a transplantation in the worst case scenario, if they survive until that stage. A stem cell donation means you get registered for the stem cell bank, and if there would ever be a patient who fits you, you would get a call, and then you can help that person to survive. You would have to go to the hospital, get a short kind of treatment so that they can isolate your stem cells. But what does this mean in respect to you helping a person to survive? You help that family. I think everyone should register to be a stem cell donor, because there are not enough people registered. This is something where you can imagine that you can save someone's life.

Christian: What about stem cell donation at birth? Because we thought about it, for example, but I found out it wouldn't help the kid itself so much, but rather other people.

Dominik: Yeah, definitely something we have also done. Let's say it's everyone's own decision. I would say a stem cell donation at birth, or also to register to be a stem cell donor, is relatively easy, but you also have to realize, okay, at one point when you get the call, there is a person waiting for you. Whenever you get this call, you have to be ready. This is the thing you have to be clear about from the start. Registration is easy, but when you get that call, you have to be ready. So don't say no at that moment, because patients will know when there is a donor. If you then say no, it's devastating.

Christian: Devastating, yeah, absolutely. I like the idea that you involved your team also in participating in the blood donation day and in everything that is also important to you. So how did you shape the company and your team after that event? What did you learn about it and what made it better?

Dominik: Yeah. What I love about having started Nanovation, but building companies really, is that you bring your culture to the team and you bring your culture to the company. And there you can shape it by telling your story. I'm quite open with my story in general, but also especially with the team, and showing them what can we do as a team event. I mentioned we organize this team event for blood donation, but also other events where, for example, in Vancouver, we have the Ronald McDonald House, where there's a housing for families who have kids with devastating diseases, like cancer. There you can go as a company, as a group of people, even with friends, and you can cook dinner for hundreds of families. It's just one dinner for you, but it means everything for that family, because they are in the hospital, they are in really critical situations. They don't want to think about what to eat, what to cook.

So if you as a team go there and you can have fun and you can cook dinner, but at the same time you give the families the food, you serve the food, you have the contact to the patients and the families. I know for myself how important these small gestures are, because for them it's incredibly useful.

Christian: What is the most underrated or the biggest myth about how you deal with that situation? My guess would be that people should leave you alone. What do you think?

Dominik: First myth is maybe that the grief stops, let's say. I know that older generations always had this one year of grief and then suddenly it's over. It's never over. This grief will go on. It just changes how you deal with it. So that's definitely one myth.

The other thing is, leave people alone. We have such good friends and such good family that they came to us. During that time they brought us food, just put a lasagna in front of the door, texted us, "Hey, there's food in front of your home." One part which I really like, which also changed my mindset, is not just offer help, but actually do it. We have a friend who was diagnosed with cancer, and we have met various families, and you offer help, but now what changed is that you also give help immediately. In that situation, obviously we also got a lot of messages, like "let us know when you need help." At that moment you for sure need help, but you don't have time to think about what you actually need. So if someone just provides you that help, it makes things much easier. So to your question about a myth: don't just offer help, but actually do it.

Christian: I liked it. Yes. That's the difference. If you just say or ask, "Call me if you need help," nobody will call.

Dominik: Yeah, exactly. Because you're in such an extreme situation that you will not pick up the phone.

Christian: It still creates the barrier of, well, is this offer even wanted, is it a burden or not? I think you're absolutely right. Okay. Let me understand your professional transformation a little. You started as a researcher in academia, and by then you also had that curiosity and that problem solving capability, right? Tell me about that time. What was important back then for you?

Dominik: Maybe I start with going a bit through my career, and then I think maybe I focus on one point which I want to make: what changed me is, take opportunities when they are there. Through my career, I did my PhD in Basel in Switzerland. I'm a pharmacist by training, did my PhD in pharmaceutical technology, had some other research stints focusing on genome editing of the liver, then on toxicity and safety, and joined Peter Cullis in 2018 in Vancouver, because he was known for translating medicines from the bench side to the bedside, really transforming and translating technologies which are developed in his lab into companies, which then drive them into the clinic and into approval.

What was really important is that throughout life no one can tell you exactly when things are there and what happens, but when the doors are open, you also have to be ready to say yes and step through. This was really important for me. I was focused on academia, as you said: I've done my PhD, I've done a postdoc, I love science and I still love academia. It's just that in academia you focus more on the basic science, and there's this kind of maybe vicious circle of publishing, getting grants and some bureaucracy. This basic science is really important, and some labs are maybe more translational than others, but the basic science is really important. But as a company, you work with pharma, biotech, and the focus is to translate that science to the patient. So it doesn't stop there. The focus is you need to develop that technology, and that technology becomes a therapy. That is really what is usually motivating for me.

Christian: Yes. You mentioned that moment when you joined Nanovation. What were you thinking back then? I mean, transforming, changing from academia to the biotech world, to the corporate world somehow. What was easy? What was difficult?

Dominik: Easy was if you have great team members and great support. Starting off with Peter Cullis, whom I joined in 2018 in his academic lab, we built this nanomedicine network, and then COVID came and there was a lot of interest. Peter had started various companies before and he had always started these companies with scientists from his lab and friends and researchers he likes to work with. Having this mentor who believes in you and gives you this opportunity, because when I joined Peter initially, I hadn't had a plan to start Nanovation, but it was this opportunity, and he encouraged myself as well as Jay Kulkarni, my co-founder and chief scientific officer of Nanovation: "Hey, let's spin this out of this nanomedicine network which we have and actually start the company." So we started Nanovation in 2020.

So it was this support, but also this is what I always tell others when they are thinking about starting a company: I would never start a company alone. It's so helpful to have someone on your side, like I had Jay, to exchange ideas and talk about things. When you start as a company of two, even though Jay became the co-founding CSO and I became the co-founding CEO, I always like to say you are the C-whatever is needed at that moment, because you have to organize laptops, a laboratory, you need to take care of workplace safety, suppliers, legal agreements, employment agreements, you have to do everything. That is on the one hand challenging, because you haven't been exposed to that in academia. On the other hand, your learning curve is incredibly steep and it's fun. And I like to learn new things.

Christian: Yeah. So that piece, I didn't know exactly. So you actually knew Peter for two years before you co-founded Nanovation, right? I'd like to ask a specific question, just how this came together. I think there are some conversations, and kind of testing, and scrutiny on the other side for yourself as well, and also some general thoughts, right? But I'm interested in those conversations and that relationship.

Dominik: Yeah. And I would say it started really off that I did my PhD in Switzerland and a postdoc. Then I knew together with my wife, we wanted to go abroad before the kids go to school. So we decided then, let's think about where we could go. I applied also for research funding from the Swiss National Science Foundation, and I was lucky to be granted one of these precious grants, and then I could choose wherever I wanted to go. I knew people from the Netherlands who had been at that time in Peter Cullis's lab at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. So I chatted first with Roy, who is now professor in Eindhoven, and talked with him about how it was to be with Peter. Peter was really well known in the field because he had already translated drugs into the clinic, various medicines. Then I met Peter. I had met Peter the first time in 2015 already at a conference, because he has been close to 50 years in that field. Then I met him in 2017 when I was already granted this funding. We discussed details, had several calls, and then in 2018, together with the family, we moved to Canada and stayed there for several years and were really building this relationship. He is a person who gives you full trust.

Together with Jay, who was also working in Peter's lab at the time when I joined, and Roy, who was also a postdoc, we really managed the lab. We dealt with all the different projects and Peter gave us the freedom to really develop our ideas and collaborate. I love to work with other people, so I collaborated across the globe with various top-notch scientists and developed new technologies for genetic medicines. This really then came to that moment that there was the opportunity to start Nanovation, because during COVID there had been two companies from the US and two companies from Europe contacting us because of our strong expertise and encouraging us, "Hey, we somehow want to find a way to work with you." Being at the university, at that time being in this nanomedicine network, it's not as easy to work with other companies because of agreements. Then it was clear, okay, we have to spin this out of this nanomedicine network and be completely independent of the university to get Nanovation off the ground. Peter encouraged us and then we took the opportunity and I would always do it again.

Christian: How much uncertainty was there and did you like it?

Dominik: There was for sure uncertainty, but maybe going back to my point, I'm a positive person. My statement is always, there's always risk in life. And at that time, obviously, when we started Nanovation, Lotta wasn't yet diagnosed with leukemia. So I know now things can happen all the time and you cannot control everything. You can control some things and you have to stay clear and focused, but some things you cannot control. So for sure there has been uncertainty at that time, but if you don't take the risk and take this opportunity, you will never find out what the risks are and what the uncertainty is, and I feel quite comfortable with that situation. Also being a scientist, there are so many experiments and studies which fail. But what motivates me always is, at one point it might work. And then I'm the first person in the world who has discovered that phenomenon of science. This is what drives me. I can live quite well with uncertainty, to be honest.

Christian: Yes. Did you have an exit plan at this point? Or even thought about an exit? I don't want to give you the words, but just an idea, that other people said, well, if this doesn't work in 12 months, I have to look for something else. Was this part of your thinking?

Dominik: No. If I commit to something, I'm committed to it and I will build and continue to build Nanovation. And for sure there will be other opportunities after the time of Nanovation, when this will be, I don't know. But no, my point is always similar to when you marry someone: you go into a marriage not with thinking, when do I exit that already? This is how I see starting companies. I go into that marriage and start this off with a mindset, this should be a success. And I think this is important.

Christian: What was your relationship with entrepreneurship at this point? Were you very naive? Were you very focused? Did you know you have to take a lot of risk? If you think back now, your entrepreneurship skills from one to ten, where were they?

Dominik: From one to ten? For sure a single digit. But I think it's really about learning by doing and going through the process. For sure. I fully agree, having started once a company, I would always do it again. And for sure there are hundreds of learnings throughout that where I have a much better starting point.

Christian: Do you have a story about you being very naive?

Dominik: Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe initially in certain partnerships. Shortly after we started Nanovation, we had a really big pharma working with us, and the negotiations took quite a lot of time. At the end, maybe naive, they then shut down all their genetic medicines effort and this opportunity was gone. So maybe naive in a way that I initially thought, okay, if I'm so close to a partnership deal, it should work out. But to the point, you cannot control everything. You always have to keep different opportunities up, because until the signatures are on paper, things can always go wrong. And this is maybe naivety in the sense of, you have to always push for it.

Christian: So you didn't make a deal?

Dominik: No, that deal not, but then there were others. So I would say one learning is for sure, you have to continue to drive partnerships, and then it's about the science and it's about the data you have at the end. And then it's also a lot of other things you cannot influence, like the market, maybe new therapies which get developed which are better than the technology you're working on. So you're running against time. For sure, time, and this may be something I learned because of my personal experience, how important time is, and the urgency. Translating this to patients, there are a lot of patients and families waiting for therapy, so time is of the essence, but things take time and drug development is a very long process and there's a lot of uncertainty and you have to go through a lot of different steps, but you need to keep pushing.

Christian: Yeah. What are your learnings on building teams and recruiting and shaping culture and letting people go? Do you have examples?

Dominik: Yeah. Building team, I would say we were quite lucky that the initial team, let's say maybe up to 20 people or so, we hired a lot of people with whom Jay and myself have worked with. So we knew the people, we knew their skill set, we knew their, let's say, personalities, which helped a lot. From the first employee to then the other ones we hired afterwards, it was a pleasure because we knew how to work together. Then obviously when you grow as a company you also then have people in culture, like consultants or internal team members who deal with the recruitment. Let's say one part is when you recruit people, it's definitely skill set, but then personality is so important.

Maybe that's also learning: the bigger the team gets, the more personalities come together, and then there are always new things you have to deal with in terms of how to structure the team, how to maybe improve management of certain team members, how to restructure certain teams. And yes, if you have to let go of people, it's quite sad and challenging, but at one point, for example if there are team members who always have some friction with others, you have to realize, okay, maybe you cannot change that person or adapt the situation, so you have to take actions. It's not easy, but that's the way it is. This is definitely one key learning. I'm always solution oriented and you can try to find solutions, but changing personalities is almost impossible. If there are certain personality characteristics which lead to friction, you cannot actually change it, so you have to also be honest to yourself and to the other team members and then potentially let someone go.

What I think is important there is communication. It's talking to the team, talking with your co-founders, talking to that person, but at the same time obviously you change the trajectory of that person, so I'm fully aware of that. Anyone who left Nanovation, I always try to keep a good relationship and also help them to find new jobs, because at the end I always like to say, you see, there are always two moments in life when you see each other. So maybe that person is coming together with you as a partner from another company. I think it's really important to also realize that some things don't work out. You go different ways, but then maybe the ways cross each other again.

Christian: Yeah. When you build teams on your team and you try to improve people, now I think you do it differently than in the early stages, the early times of Nanovation, and you said you look at personality types. What is your strategy there, understanding personality?

Dominik: Yeah. So maybe to the process. Obviously when we were much smaller, I had interviews with anyone we hired. At one point you just cannot handle that anymore. During our process now we have people and culture doing the first stages, then the hiring manager, but then we also have our team members, which has always been important from the start until now. Team members who will work with that person will be part of the final stage. If there are five team members in the team and four of them say, I don't think it clicks with that person, we will not hire that person, because at the end they have to work together with that person and this hire. I think that's key.

And I would say I'm a people person, so I think I have a good analytical skill to quickly see some maybe characteristics of that person. So I always like to jump on a quick call before we have hired that person, and I like to indicate certain directions, also explain that people should be very open and constructive and ask questions. Then how people react, I think I can have a good skill set to analyze and to understand what could be strengths of the person, but what could be potential weaknesses.

Christian: You know, there's a difference between understanding psychology and understanding how people react under stress. Do you know how you react under stress? Do you communicate that with people?

Dominik: Yes. Let's say, first starting with how I react to stress. Given that I have experienced a really devastating moment in our life, I deal differently now with stress, because when there's a stressful moment I always have kind of the toolkit of stepping in and analyzing what is the problem and putting it into perspective. Having seen your kids and your child in devastating situations with cancer, and also seeing your kids next to the bed passing away, it brings everything into perspective. Then if there's a stressful moment, I can easily step out and say, okay, the world will not break apart if I don't solve this within the next hour. At the same time I then need to focus on, that's the problem, what are potential issues. This is also what we try to tell the team: if there's a problem, come with solutions, because otherwise we cannot overcome that problem.

In terms of how to communicate with others, we had leadership training with various team members and tried to encourage that. One learning is definitely to communicate, either giving short feedback like, "I have a lot on my table, be patient, I will get back to you," and also team members not immediately writing back, but saying "I will get back, but maybe I will take time." I really don't mind if people write twice because something is urgent. It's always about prioritization. I need to understand what the priorities are and tackle these first.

Christian: You said that event, that your child had cancer and passed away, was a very stressful time and it shaped you. What else is now important that was not important before? What kind of identity do you have now? What focus do you have now?

Dominik: I would say it didn't completely change, not a 180 degree change, but it definitely had a different level of impact in terms of how I behave. The point of having impact is really about having an impact to develop therapies which help patients, but also impact on people. I really see that, as I mentioned, career trajectories. I see the team at Nanovation who join us. I will influence their career, and how I interact with them, how I influence their leadership skills, how I also am vulnerable. If I don't know things, I'm the first one to admit this, because the most wrong thing you can do is to not admit that you're wrong, because then it can be very expensive. Admit it as fast as possible and find solutions together. I don't have the solution to everything, but hopefully someone of the team has it and we can discuss it together.

So being vulnerable for sure, and being open about this, but also really being laser focused on having an impact, and also seeing behind people, not seeing what you see when you meet a person for the first time. I'm really curious about stories of other people, and you learn a lot, how they grew up, what they have, what they love, what they don't love. I love this, and it also helped me to realize that if I am open with my situation, I met various people who I work now also closely with, advisors, consultants of Nanovation, but even some of our partners from partner companies, who then said they lost their wife. It's good to talk about this with them, because you realize, okay, you have some things in common which you never want to have in common, but this really helps to build a relationship.

Christian: Yeah. You said impact. You know, I like the word. For many people it means different things, but what does it mean for you?

Dominik: Impact, as we have talked through the entire time so far, is patients. Impact means for me building something which at the end helps patients. That's the North Star I always follow. There are other things from a company perspective. Let's say what means success for me, or impact, is impact for people, for team members, really empowering people we have in the team, our partners, to make them successful. Also, obviously we have a responsibility for our shareholders and there some, let's say, impact. But at the end, the North Star is the patient.

If we are able to develop therapies for these patients and solve a delivery problem with Nanovation, this will also have impact on these other parts. The team will be very motivated if we solve delivery problems and come up with new ideas, the shareholders will profit from that, as well as our partners who drive that into the clinic or maybe manufacture that therapy. So I think if you keep focused on that North Star, everything else will come with it. And this is really what having an impact means for me.

Christian: Yeah. Assuming, let's say in five years, there's a major breakthrough in a therapy where Nanovation was developing a big part of it with the LNP technology. Assuming you save a child's life, what does it do with you? What will it do with you?

Dominik: I can already feel it now. It would be incredible. It would be the most precious thing I could have, because then I have really achieved one part of why I'm doing this all day long and every day and being motivated, and I love what I do. It's really to help a family. And I would definitely first think about my daughter and that she helped me to get to that point. And if I have a chance to meet that family, I would love it. But obviously I don't know if that situation would be there, but for sure it would be a very happy moment for me.

Christian: Let me ask a follow-up question, because I'm trying to understand what you think, what you really think. Why is that important?

Dominik: I would say, why is it important that we do this every day?

Christian: No, no. What I mean is, why is it important that you would be able to relate a success to the thought of your daughter? To answer it maybe that way, that...

Dominik: That I was not as lucky. Lotta, even though she had various different medications, different treatment schemes, we were not lucky enough to have this therapy which helps her to survive cancer. And cancer is a devastating disease. I think it's really about that Nanovation, the team we have, myself, have been able to develop together with partners a therapy which solves that. I think it's really about that I myself have not been lucky enough because of the time, because the therapy wasn't there. Science is incredibly complex. Other companies did not come up with a solution to that. I think it's really that I see myself back in this situation. We weren't that lucky. And now I can really have the success.

Christian: Yeah. In which diseases, disease modalities, in which indications will LNPs have the biggest impact?

Dominik: I would say they already have a really big impact. Let's say vaccines, for example. But the next big waves which are ongoing is cancer vaccines, preventive or actually as a kind of treatment. Cancer vaccines show incredibly potent outcomes in patients in combination with other therapies, because our immune system has evolved over millions of years, and the problem with cancer, for example, is that cancer is kind of on the way to escape from our immune system. So with cancer vaccines and immunotherapies, we're able to actually boost our immune system to attack the cancer. Cancer vaccine is definitely a big one. Then in vivo CAR T therapies, for also modifying T cells, specific immune cells in our body, to attack cancer. Also autoimmune diseases, where you have an overreactive immune system. There, I would say, it just starts.

I always like to say, or I'll take a quote from Ugur Sahin, still the current CEO of BioNTech, who said that by the mid of 2030, one third of all drugs will be genetic medicine based. And there are also market analysts who say this will be a hundred billion dollar market. There are so many diseases you can tackle, not only because of the LNP itself, but because we have a much better understanding of diseases, like genetic diseases, and we can now really go in and cure these diseases, because we know not only the symptoms, but we know the origin of the disease and we can correct that disease. That is such a powerful strategy and approach, but what you always need is the delivery solution to bring these drugs into the specific organs.

Christian: Yes. Is there a kind of ranking between diseases you would like to work on? I don't know if you want to say it, but cancer in children is something else than Alzheimer's or neurodegenerative diseases. It's a different group. And I think it's also more difficult to develop one thing against the other, but I'm trying to understand if you have that kind of ranking in your mind.

Dominik: For sure. I have a different relationship to cancer because I've seen what this really means. And the current medicines we have are mostly stemming from decades ago. Even though there are new therapies at the end, when you look at survival curves, the current therapies on average maybe sometimes extend survival three months, six months, which means nothing. And you have to understand that during these three to six months there are a lot of side effects. So it's not that you have a healthy, super life. Cancer is definitely, because I have seen how devastating it is, a focus, and I'm motivated by these projects with partners, but I would take a different approach to this.

One part is my personal story and the focus on cancer and that I have seen what this means. On the other end, I've started a company developing technologies, and this has to be driven by the science and the biology. Even though I'm motivated by these projects I follow, I'm most motivated in the projects where I see the technology is aligned with what we want to achieve. If this is cancer or genetic disease or an autoimmune disease, then at the end it doesn't matter too much for me, if I know we have something in our hands which is incredibly powerful and could overcome these challenges.

Christian: Yes. Do you encourage companies to meet patients? 100%. Why?

Dominik: It changes so much. I would say before that happened with Lotta, you don't meet patients on a regular basis, and everyone maybe has family members or friends who had cancer, but if it's a close family member, you have a completely different perspective on that. What I always like to say is everyone lives kind of in a bubble and you haven't seen what this really means. So why I'm so open about my story is to tell the people what it means. I told the story and showed photos to my team, quite personal moments, shared personal moments, but also showed them videos from patients and stories which you can find easily on YouTube, but which are very motivating when you see how therapies have transformed certain patients' lives.

Maybe to go back, as a scientist you think about what are the assays you're using, what are the studies, what is the work plan. A patient thinks about the next birthday, the next day when they feel better. So it's a completely different perspective, and I think what helps is to talk to patients and know these patients, how they feel, and what an incredible chance you have when you are able with the company to develop a therapy to help these patients.

Christian: What I heard in an interview of another person, and she said, usually people from medical affairs are not allowed to speak to patients directly. So I didn't think about that problem, that many companies aren't even allowed to speak to patients. So what could be a solution to that?

Dominik: That's a good question. I would say, I don't know. Let's say we don't have medical affairs people within Nanovation, but obviously, given I have been in contact with various patient groups and families who lost their kids, I always have shared, and I asked them, are you okay if I share your story about your kid with my team? So I also have shared stories with the team. And I think, let's say, talking to patients directly is one thing, but you can also, I have contacted clinicians, or actually patients who are very active on LinkedIn, and asked them, would you ever be willing to come to Nanovation, for example, or being at a conference and listening to their story. I think one thing is meeting directly the patient, but also talking to medical doctors, patient associations, if they can maybe know someone, because patients also have to be willing to tell their story. It's a quite vulnerable moment.

Christian: Yes. If you found a letter from your older self, assuming time travel or something like that. Yeah. If you found a letter from your older self, let's say Dominik at 80 writes you, Dominik in today's years, what would he say?

Dominik: Stay focused to have an impact which goes beyond the 80 years. Everyone lives on this globe to have an impact. I only have a certain time on this planet and I want to do something which makes the world a slightly better place and which goes beyond my time. It's about how I treat others, how I empower others, how I bring up my kids, what I give to them, how they think about the world, how do they think about other people. I think it's that that I would write in this letter, and say, approach every day in the mindset of trying to make the world a better place. It sounds very broad, but I think it's really about that. There are so many little moments where you can make others happy and also see when others need help and support them.

Christian: Would your older self be proud of you?

Dominik: Positive person, I would say yes. Yes, in a way, how I managed to deal with various situations throughout my life, but also taking opportunities and really driving these forward. And you talk about the future, there's one quote I love, and it's: the best way to predict the future is to create it yourself. And this is really how I think about it. If I want to predict the future, I have to shape our scientific community, I have to shape the direction, I have to shape people who surround me in thinking how they can support others, what can you do in a day-to-day. It's really about that I think I have now the power to shape the future, and this is incredibly motivating.

Christian: Very good, thank you very much. I think we ended here. Great conversation, thank you very much.

Dominik: Thank you so much, Christian. It was a pleasure, thanks a lot.